From top: Wireworld Electrifier, Sine SA-6 and lastly, Furutech e-TP60. Which is my choice?

Do power bars have sonic characteristics? Or do they all sound the same? I wanted to find out if spending more $$$ in this area will improve the system's sound? Or are we just paying more for better brand name and cosmetics? I got 3 contenders, ranging from RM$300 - $1,800 to put to test.

Wireworld Electrifier. Basic build but very decent quality for the price.

First up, I must make clear that the Wireworld Electrifier is a starter kit to get you up and going or if your kind self or your system is not demanding, then can serve it's distributor role rather well. It comes with a basic looking plastic body shell and has 1 input, then splits to 6 copper outputs. It's actually OEM to Wireworld's spec by Wonpro. I find the sound(if there's a sound with distributors) to be very neutral, tidy and for the money asked(RM$300 or so when available), decent. Note that the Electrifier has since 2003 been superseded by Wireworld Tundra, which is still current model, I think.

Furutech e-TP60. Well built and nicely presented. Sound is neutral, with clean and tidy highs.

The Furutech e-TP60 has much better build quality, as it should for selling at RM$1320 a piece. It has a nice aluminium curved top face plate and matt black finished bottom portion for that sleek look. Like the Wireworld, it features 1 input the splits to 6 gold plated outputs. On the inside, Furutech employs a special sheet compound shielding formula 303 developed by the 3M company. Furutech claims the use of this non contact, i.e. to the duplex output sockets can effectively shield the box from harmful stray EMI/RFI radiation. The sound of the Furutech, when used in place of the Wireworld, is even tonality, with cleaner and tidier high frequencies. The Furutech also seemed subjectively to have lower noise floor. All other areas of sonic performance almost identical or very slightly better then the Wireworld. The contact points of the Furutech is much more superior to the Wireworld.

Sine SA-6. The heavy weight champ! Build to last and sounds great too! Review sample came in silver.

Lastly, the Sine SA-6 is the heavy weight of the group, with solid 5mm aluminium plates built all round and very nicely bolted together with counter sunk screws. The Sine offers the same 1 input splits to 6 cryo treated outputs. The cables used to connect the duplex outputs are audio grade silver type. The box seems to be filled with some kind of bead compound, which would either functions as internal resonant damping or just for sheilding stray EMI/RFI radiation. The contacts are gold plated and are as tight as the Furutech's. The sound of the Sine is really something else. At first the highs seemed like rolling off prematurely, but on closer analysis, is actually more airy and perhaps sound like it's set a little further back in to the sound stage. This creates a more believable illusion of stage depth. The vocals are set a little behind the speakers, vis a vis the Wireworld and Furutech which puts the vocal in line between the speakers, if a little closer to the listener. Bass is more robust, and easy to follow. Image density is full, and has the fade to black quality, against the Wireworld and Furutech's stronger image outlined presentation. Noise floor is the lowest of the 3 auditioned too. Price of the Sine is comparatively highest of the trio at RM$1,800 a piece.


I used both the Furutech and the Sine to substitute my existing Wireworld power bar, taking clean, isolated power from the Torus Power, then splitting to six outputs for all my front end needs, i.e. CDP player, pre amp, turn table and phono stage. All 3 power bars do not contain any sort of filters inside, but the difference they made to the system's sound is very notice able indeed. The Sine being the most effective, followed by the Furutech in 2nd place, and lastly the Wireworld. I guess the old adage "You get what you pay for" still applies here! This preview is compiled using the Bryston 4BSST2 in place of my Pass Alephs.

Furutech is sold by Audiomatic, contact Eugene, tel: 012-3222698
Sine is sold by Hi-Way Laser, contact Kenny Sin, tel: 019-2813399

54 comments:

Ken said...

Panzer,

May I know where is Sine products manufactured? They seem to be well built.

From your desciption of the sound, they seem to be forgiving, yet precise. I am actually a bit concern when you say that the soundstage is more laidback yet create a better depth illusion. I don't agree with this assertion. One can easily perceive the depth even if the soundstage is more forward or laidback. It is not related.

huang said...

I've always admire Sine products;especially the cables.

Beginning to be discovered by the world IMO,and has a presence in the US too.

Definitely better than Furutech IME

Shaw said...

Several different sources of contaminations:

1.resonating chasis.

2.Stray RFI/EMF

3.High Impedence between receptacles.

4Resonating Electricity;

so you can see how important the distributors are.

Personally,I am happy with Powerwing from audioexcellence;My friends has got good results from Acoustic Revive Rtps power distributors.

in short,yes they are important

km ng said...

Panzer,

If I read correctly, you have connected the digital and analogue components to the outlets of the power bar.

Unless the outlets are isolated, which I doubt, the digital and analogue components can interfere with each other.

I would think it's best to keep the the analogue and digital components separate in the power grid.

P.S. Why can't you plug the components directly to the Torus?

jamieson said...

I fully concur with Mr Ng's op[inion .

The digital noise could easily 'leak' out to contaminate other equipment.

I also agree with Mr Ng's observation about the need to plug the equipments directly.

I suspect, though that the no of receptacles might not be adequate.May I then suggest that the power amps[and preferably preamp]are plugs directly and you could connect the power extension on and connect your CDP and DACs here

Panzer said...

Ken,

I am just sharing my findings here. Again, may I remind that my findings are not empirical. So if you get a diferent result and don't agree with me. That's o.k. Diferent systems, diferent ears.

KM,

The guys at Pure Power and Torus Power certainly doesn't think so, about digital sources contaminating analog audio. If you've open and seen the insides of both products, they are non filtered or isolated at the outputs either! A question I've posted openly, if you read my scriblings on the Pure Power review.

As to way I could not power all my stuff direct from Torus Power? There's not enough recepticles to start with. Also read my early May posting on how I re-organised my cablings to suit my requirements.

All these questions, I've asked the manufacturers, and they gave me very re-assuring answers and I' m hearing my system everyday, it doesn't sound wrong to me. If your arguement is that it could be better, then what else can't be better?

In fact my whole system and room could be better! Heck! My life can be better too!

How about yours?

Panzer said...

Ken,

Sine products are very likely made in China.

Anonymous said...

Ken,

SINE is a Hong Kong product bur manufactured in China. I am a user of SINE products e.g PC and wall AC outlet. very good product indeed. The current dealer in Malaysia really mark up the price damn high compare to the previous dealer.

tim said...

i have not encounter anything better than mapleshade audio power dist at whatever price..

you get very,very transparent sound and if used after power cond. it does not impart any sonic signitare of its own

Ken said...

Anon @11.52 and Panzer,

Thanks for the info on Sine products.


Panzer,

Just to clarify with you, I am not challenging or disputing your findings on the reviews.

You make a remark "perhaps sound like it's set a little further back in to the sound stage. This creates a more believable illusion of stage depth."
I just feel that this is an incorrect statement because a more laidback soundstage does not give you better depth. This is because both of them are different things.

Panzer said...

Ken,

You know what? I actually really admire your pair of ears! I am amazed, in the particular tuning session at hifikaki's place, with each Telos tweak introduced, whilst I heard little if subtle diferences, you can instantly identify a few parameters of sound diference! Amazing. I humbly, think that your pair of ears are quite possibly the top 3 most sensitive in the Malaysian audiphile world!(Though some might not agree with me)

What is even more amazing is that you can look at a system, even before the play button is pressed, you already claim have an idea about the sound! You have the ability to eye-fi the hi-fi, so to speak.

Please accept my outmost admiration of your listening abilities, of which I will admit to have lesser of.

With the agreement of ML, I hereby invite you to positively contribute your amazing talents to this blog, for the betterment of the local audio scene.

Ken said...

Panzer,

I am very disappointed in your response to my comment.

I am just pointing out something which I feel you have commented wrongly and you responded sarcastically.

The reason why you did not hear much difference when we tweak hifikaki's system is because

1. you came after we have almost finish tweaking the system. We were there from noon, you only came around 3pm. You did not hear the step to step torquing we did. So how do you expect to hear the difference later?

2. I don't remember you sitting in the correct position to listen to the system at all. All I remembered was that you walked in and out of the room, not particularly paying attention to anything. Again, how do you expect to hear any difference?

3. You never went through the torquing experience even in your setup. How do you expect yourself to know what is happening?

Majority of improvement in audiophilia is subtle. If you change cables or any hardware and even tweaks, most of the time, they only bring subtle but noticeable improvement to your system. If you get major improvement, then it is because your previous gears or tweaks are poor.
And if you cannot hear these differences, then how can we expect to believe what you write in this blog? Now that we know that you cannot hear this differences, how do you expect us to believe your reviews as well? You will lose all your credibility not only as an audiophile but also as a reviewer.

yh said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
David said...

Ken,
what qualifies u to question Panzer and his credibility? Do you seriously think you are a better audiophile than him, or any one else for that matter?

Eddie said...

Master Ken,
you cannot say things like that. Panzer writer many things fou us, we had fun reading, and we see a iot of new things here. I respect him as a person, i also respect what he says. I respect you too, and i hope you respect Panzer too.

hifikaki said...

Ken,

To question Panzer's credibility is uncalled for.

This blog is entirely subjetive based. Panzer and myself do not purport anything that we write as other than personal opinion. I believe every reader understand this.

If we listen differently than you (or any other readers) and vice versa, for whatever reason, I hope every one will take it with an open mind.

yh said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
yh said...

Ken.....I have visited Panzer system last week, very good sounding, I trust his review.

but sadly , until today I still haven't have the chance to admire your fine tuned Hi-end system....

Typing review/comment in internet is easy nowadays if one have powerful writing power/skill, I wouldn't say one person with bad sounding system,his review/comment cannot be trust (I also often ruin my system sound with tweaking experiment)... but I sure to get good sounding from a system , one will need experience and knowledge ,and I sure Panzer have both, base on his system's sound.

I hope to have a chance to visit you set up next month when I visit KL again, so that you can explain/show me the different between deep soundstage ,and soundstage with good depth..LOL!

...oh yes,since you mention best with come together with little KC, I have invited him and hope he is free that few days and can go KL with me too...

Cheer
Joamonte

Ken said...

All,

First of all, look at Panzer's reply to my comment. That to me is a very, very sarcastic comment. It was not a compliment anyway you look at it. And when people are sarcastic to you, should you just take it in the chin?

I know he contributes a lot to this blog. And some people mentioned that I don't have the right to question Panzer's reviewing abilities. Can I also say that he has no right in questioning my listening abilities?

If you cannot hear a difference, then find out why you cannot. Learn, Aspire!!! In the hifikaki torquing session, Panzer was not in the room most of the time, so how can he hear the difference we have done?

Just because you cannot hear a difference, should that give you the right to give a sarcastic comment like what Panzer does?
"I have I humbly, think that your pair of ears are quite possibly the top 3 most sensitive in the Malaysian audiphile world!(Though some might not agree with me)".

This to me is totally uncalled for. I did not start all this. He did. And I am to be crucified for this???? Just digest this!

Joamonte,
FYI, there is no difference between a deep soundstage and a soundstage with good depth. It is the same thing! However there is a difference between a wide soundstage and deep soundstage.

The reason I am not able to let you hear my setup is because I have been travelling quite a bit and my system has not been switched on as often as I would have liked. I don't think July would be a good time to come as I staill have to travel. I think August would be a better time. And I won't let anyone I have not met before to listen to my system without being accompanied by a mutual friend

yh said...

Ken...

Maybe we can meet in the morning and I visit you at night, than I would become someone you 'have met before', haha.....

I can share with you my thought, human are not so sensitive with distance when a object is far away from him, you look down from 50 story and 40 story, you will feel not much different, but look down from 2nd story to 12 story , the diferent is big....same to hearing.

So I can fully understand what Panzer mean when he said 'perhaps sound like it's set a little further back in to the sound stage. This creates a more believable illusion of stage depth.'...

..a more laid back sound stage DO able to create a illusion of the stage depth is better, because when the vocal is shift away 5 more feet from listener, even the background music only shift 2 feet back,(base on your concept the stage depth have become poorer),but if you ask 10 audiophile, 9 will tell you the soundstage become deeper..

....why is it so? because we are not so sensitive about the distance between vocal and background music, as compare to the different between our distance to the vocal, simple as that.

Joamonte

Ken said...

Joamonte,

Since you brought up the soundstage depth issue, I will comment on this.

Having a laidback soundstage does not create a better layering or depth to the soundstage. You will still get a one layering of the soundstage. You just cannot discern the perception of the depth. You can hear this easily if you are an experienced listener.

I cannot agree with your analogy of a person looking down from the 50th to 40th storey would have less perception of height than looking down from 12th storey to 2nd storey. The reason I say this is because a human vision is not only straight ahead. It also consist of cues from the side as well. Just look straight ahead, fixating onto a single point, you will see the front and also the side. This is what we call visual field.

If anyone want to learn about depth, you should start by listening to cds which can showcase this, such as Christy Baron's "I thought about you". You can easily hear the instrumentalists standing further behind Christy. The perception of depth is easily discernible. Just buy this cd and listen to it on your system.

To maximise depth in a hifi setup, you need to
1. make sure that your system is good enough
If your system does not have the resolution, you would not be able to hear all this spatial cues.

2. maximise your speaker placement.
You practically have to pull the speakers halfway into the room, not 1/3rd as recommended by Cardas. You have to experiment with the degree of toe in to capture/solidify the imaging of vocalist and also other musicians in the song.
But one word of caution, if you pull speakers out at the distance I recommend, some of you will find that you lose some bass in the process. This is especially if your speaker is bass shy or your amp is low powered. So please experiment. You may take up a few weeks to experiment and maximise your speaker placement. Good luck cause you will need it.

David said...

Ken,
U come here taik big and crticise others. On what basis? At least both Panzer & hifikaki open their doors to visit request, as so many here can confirmed their sound. U only know how to give joamonte excuses not to visit u for so long. U don't even have the courage to letpeople share ur hifi. I think u are just all smoke and mirrors!If u have substance, then show joamonte your system.

Ken said...

David,

FYI, Panzer, Hifikaki and Maggielurva system has visited and listened to my system before. But that quite a while ago. Way before I had all the Telos cables, tweaks and all. I have also visited and listened to their systems.

I always let people listen to my setup, but only after I have known them for a while. I don't simply let anyone whom I haven't even seen or correspond before to listen to my system. You don't even know that person and you simply let him into your house? I have never met Joamonte before and I have only started corresponded with him very recently.
Think about it, would a good girl let the guy into her bedroom on a first date;-P
Joamonte, I know you are probably a decent guy but I am just too busy to arrange a time for you.

I also "don't talk big", I only talk facts. You can look at all my posts. What I say is based on facts, also experience that I have went through in hifi. People may disagree with what I say and that is OK with me. But what I cannot take is when people attack me without any reason whatsoever.
Just read my post again. I only commented on Panzer's assertion on soundstage depth and he responded by attacking me. So who start the flame first?
And if someone keep attacking you, would you attack back or just take it? If you just take it, then you would lose all your credibility because you don't know or cannot defend what you believe.

I am not here to prove anything. But what I want to do so is to make sure what the reviewers here say is correct. Because there is a lot of newbies who visit this blog. If this inexperienced people read some incorrect stuff, they will learn all the wrong things. And that person will remain clueless longer. The reason I don't want this to happen is because I went through all this when I started in hifi more than 10 years ago. I was misled by some "audiophiles" and my hifi knowledge was poor until I met a very knowledgeable sifu. I learn most of the things about hifi from him and my knowledge improved tremendously. The reason my knowledge accelerated is because we not only theorise but we experimented on those theories to get a better sound.
But due to work commitments, my hifi skills has stagnated for the last 2-3 years. But after learning about torquing and Telos tweaking from my friend KC, my system has improved tremendously. To me, this is the best sound I have obtained in all my life in audiophilia.

I hope you understand what I am trying to convey. But if you still do not agree with me, then all I can say is don't read my future post in this blog. I don't have time to do a full review because you need to run in the hardware continuously for a long period to hear what it can give. This is because all the parts in that gear is not run-in yet.

Eddie said...

David,Ken,
please don't use blog to fight. Use it to share and discuss in harmony. NO need to say who better than who.All is better than me, a beginer in hifi.

Capernaum Creative Solutions Inc. said...

Dear All,

I read a misrepresentation of Panzer's review by putting in a word which was not in Panzer's post. The word is, "laidback".

This is what Panzer wrote.

"At first the highs seemed like rolling off prematurely, but on closer analysis, is actually more airy and perhaps sound like it's set a little further back in to the sound stage. This creates a more believable illusion of stage depth."

"...a little further back..." was replaced by "laidback".

I could be wrong but are they the same?

Felix

Panzer said...

Joamonte, David, Eddie, hifikaki,

Thanks for coming together for me. I appreciate it.

Ken,

I've been away for a day, and it has degenerated in to this?

A friend and fellow reader has alerted me to this.

I am very sorry and frankly, a little hurt, if you took my humbling and sincere praises for sarcarsim. I trully meant well. You have a pair of first rate ears, experience and knowledge in hifi. I aknowledge that as fact. As we are still looking for writers, I humbly invited you because I trully believed you are the best for the job. Now, how much more sincere do I need get?

You have raised a question about my review of the Sine SA-6 power bar, that I have answered politely. I do not see the need to further explain my self, as I believe my statement can be easily understood, as per Joamonte rightly pointed out 9/10 persons would interprete it to be. But you choose to interprete it your way and question again.

I now also see that you do not take it well when others question you?

Do you do on to others if you do not want others to do on to you?

You also tell David that you "are here to make sure what the reviewers here say is correct".

1)Are you insinuating that the writers are always misleading our dear readers?

2)What make you think, that only your perspective is right? and those whom write here are wrong?

3)Why do you see the need to police this blog? Do you also police all other www forums, websites and even audio related chat rooms?

4) You have declined ML's invitation to write here before, and it looks very likely too that you'll decline my invitation here offered 2 days ago. You cited you have no time to run in hardware and write about them. Yet, you hang around here all the time policing this blog, making sure we say the right things, and replying almost instantly to David's and Joamonte's post. Is that not time?

5) You question my credibility as an audiophile and reviewer. Since when audiophiles have credibility ratings to start with? Do you get brownie cookies along with audiophile credits?

As to my credibility as a reviewer, if you don't like or disagree with what you read, you can always don't read my crap! There's a choice you know?

Just like a lot of other people who don't like to read Ken Kessler's writing too! Does Ken Kessler have any less credibility than the other reviewers?


Ken, bottom line is this, from your replies to David in particular you seemed to think you are superior, compared to the writers here. In my case own case, as a junior writer, I will hand it to you. See my sincererity to you again?

However, I will let Maggielurva and hifikaki to have their say on the matter which you have raised.

hotbird said...

Ken

"Think about it, would a good girl let the guy into her bedroom on a first date;-P "

Better not let her in at all, hell has no fury like a woman scorned.
When friends can be very nice, but step on her foot..be prepared for never ending battle of words in the forum that last years and years...

hifikaki said...

Ken,

quote from your 8.59am comment :"should that give you the right to give a sarcastic comment like what Panzer does?
"I have I humbly, think that your pair of ears are quite possibly the top 3 most sensitive in the Malaysian audiophile world!!(Though some might not agree with me)".

I can actually guess the names of the two "most sensitive Malaysian audiophiles" for Panzer. They are names he has been mentioning to me in our chats, so he is not coming from nowhere. I hope there is no misunderstanding between the two of you.

(Please don't ask me to mention the names in public here, I do not want to create another controversy. But if we meet in private I am more than happy to share with you. :-) )

Eddie said...

Let me guess the top 3 sifu. is Ken,Maggielurva and Joamonte? If i m wrong please don't be angry. I m just anxious and would be happy if i have so terror sifu.

Ken said...

Panzer,

Because my post is long, I have divided it into 2 parts.

First of all, if I have misinterprete what you say, then I also apologise.
Anyone who read your post would feel that it was sarcastic. I read it a few times before I responded. The more I read it, the more I felt insulted.
To prevent further "flame throwing" situation, I suggest you use emoticons in the future. Then I can know whether you are joking or being serious. Writing in a post is not the same as talking verbally.

Now to answer your question.
1)Are you insinuating that the writers are always misleading our dear readers?
--No, I did not insinuate anything. Think about it, if one fella said a wrong thing and if you know that is wrong, would you just stand there and do nothing?

2)What make you think, that only your perspective is right? and those whom write here are wrong?
--I did not say that mine is the correct perspective, anyone is free to challenge me but they should do that on facts, not something that they just believe in. You do know snake oil is prevalent in hifi.
Anyway, Joamonte's analogy about perception of depth is not really correct. If you don't believe me, just follow his advice to stand out side on a balcony of the 12th storey building looking down vs looking down from a 50th storey. Tell me you would not feel the height more at 50th storey. If anyone still feel that you feel the height more at 12th storey, then I would suggest you consult an optometrist to have their eyes checked...I am not joking about this.

3)Why do you see the need to police this blog? Do you also police all other www forums, websites and even audio related chat rooms?
--I am not policing this blog. ML is.
I frequent this blog more because I want it to succeed.
Think about it, what do I gain in giving advice? Money? Free lunch? Definitely not from ML ;-)
Also if you saw something wrong, would you correct it or just act as a bystander!

Ken said...

Panzer,

Second part
4) You have declined ML's invitation to write here before, and it looks very likely too that you'll decline my invitation here offered 2 days ago. You cited you have no time to run in hardware and write about them. Yet, you hang around here all the time policing this blog, making sure we say the right things, and replying almost instantly to David's and Joamonte's post. Is that not time?
--I declined ML's invitation because I cannot promise him that I can send him the review on time. I hold a regional position in my company and sometimes, I'll be out of Malaysia for up to 3 weeks in a month. By that time, my gears has also gone "cold". I need to fire it up for a few days to get a consistent result. By the time the system get consistent, I am travelling again. So do you think it would be fair to review the gear?
When I travel, I still can have access to internet. I am sure you travel a lot as well and I am sure you know the internet access is a lot better in many countries and also in many places in Malaysia. I always look forward to read new reviews. And I am passionate when you guys cover stuff that I am using. But sometimes I see that you are not really getting mixed results or not maximising the tweaks you are reviewing, I try to explain why is it so (like hifikaki with Telos caps). The reason why I can do that is because I went through the same process and got the same result. Then I retweaked the other part of the system and the result improved tremendously.

5) You question my credibility as an audiophile and reviewer. Since when audiophiles have credibility ratings to start with? Do you get brownie cookies along with audiophile credits?
--I question your credibility because you question my listening abilities. You may thought well when you wrote the post but if you read it again, you can understand why I find it sarcastic.
You may not know it but all reviewers are always rated. People can know how good you are when they read your reviews. Do you rate the reviewers in the audio mags that you read? You will do it subconciously whether you like it or not.

I did not talk big to David. Like I told him I talk facts. Just look at all my posts. When I was talking about torquing, I explained it step by step. I also explained the problems I encountered and how I eradicate them. When I tried out the Telos tweaks, I also tried it one at a time and I also explained my encounter with it. I even shared that with everybody but I think only GCK was appreciative of all this.
If your system sounds poorer than others, then it is up to you to improve it. How? That's up to you but if you want my advice, I can give it if you ask.I sometimes think people feel that I am trying to teach others, talk big and trying to force other people to follow me.
I can tell you I am not. You have done something and you got stuck. I know the solution and I tell you how to do it. But some people might have to protect their "face", so they question you. Sometimes I see some people like to "flame" others even though they have never used the gear before. This is sad!
I just don't take lying down. Maybe it is due to working too long in my present company where they expect you to do more than just your normal job scope.

I just want everyone to enjoy hifi. Audiophiles is such a small group and even then you get subgroups that favor SS, tubes, vinyl, digital etc. But if you think about it, all audiophiles only want one thing, that is, to maximise their system to derive more enjoyment of music. I want to help people to achieve this.

Ken said...

Hifikaki,

My ears are not that sensitive...really. Sometimes I did not hear my wife calling me. Maybe my ears has selective hearing. She also says hifi is ruining my ears and I'll be deaf sooner than I think!!!
On a serious note, it is nothing to do with having sensitive ears. It is all to do with your system resolution and power. If your system is detailed enough coupled with enough power, then all the things in the discs can be dug out, whether vinyl or cd. You can still maximise your system, just play with speaker placement.


Hotbird,

I presume you are talking from experience?? hahahaha
Am I right to say that you are not married yet?


Eddie,

There are no sifus here. We are all here to share our experience. You can see that sometimes people challenge me on what I say. And that is all right with me. But make sure it is facts. Don't bore me with innuendos.

hotbird said...

Ken,
Yes speaking from personal experiences...something for reflection below

"Come into my lair said the spider to the fly,
come into my lair and you will not die...
but Mr. Spider can't you see,
that an arachnid like you
usually eats little insects like me...
The spider sat back, laughed and said
this is a new world those days are dead,
things have changed and we can be friends...
So the fly thought about it and then
step by step he entered into that web...
the spider bit then eating him he said,
you stupid fly-I am a spider and
you should know that we spider's always lie. "

Joamonte said...

Ken,

'Anyway, Joamonte's analogy about perception of depth is not really correct. If you don't believe me, just follow his advice to stand out side on a balcony of the 12th storey building looking down vs looking down from a 50th storey. Tell me you would not feel the height more at 50th storey. If anyone still feel that you feel the height more at 12th storey, then I would suggest you consult an optometrist to have their eyes checked...I am not joking about this.'



I have to say sorry for my poor english writing skill but pls read and try to understand what I try to tell.



I wrote...

'you look down from 50 story and 40 story, you will feel not much different, but look down from 2nd story to 12 story , the different is big....same to hearing.'



It's not 50 story Vs 12 story I am talking about...its The DIFFERENT of 50 story and 40 story VS The DIFFERENT of 12 story and 2 story.

From 50 to 40 you don't see that much DIFFERENT as compare to from 12 to 2 story.

That is the reason why when the Vocal is near to you (2 story),you can feel the trumpet is far from you(12 story),becos the different is huge....; but when the vocal is far from you(40 story), the Trumpet sound(50 story) sound will not as far away from the vocal in compare (much less different)..

..and to most ppls,the distance to the vocal is related to how how deep is the sound stage, to me,after 20 over year of reading hifi review , I think there are not right or wrong ,as long as we understand what the writer trying to say~~we could never know what we believe now, is still as correct as what we believe is 10 years later....after all, we are only audiophilw and not AES member that need to definite ever term in audio dictionary right?...haha

And also,when judging distance, surrounding play only small role, human judge distance by comparing the near reference object to the target , when you driving, not only you will use surrounding to judge the distance between you and the car infront , but we mainly depend on our own car front deck as reference to judge the distance.

Just my 2 cent worth!


Joamonte

hotbird said...

Visual judging of distance is totally different from aural judging of distance. They are processed by different sense organs and different parts of the brain lobes (occipital lobe for vision, and temporal lobes for sound)

Read how the ear judge distances at

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_localization

vs

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depth_perception

If you read the above and compare, one will find that humans are much better at judging distance with their eyes, but very poor at judging distances with their ears.
Quote:
"In general, humans are best at judging sound source azimuth, then elevation, and worst at judging distance"

On the other hand, with only one eye, a human can judge distance relatively accurate and easy.

So better not even use visual perception to analogize aural perception. They are totally not comparable

Ken said...

Hi Joamonte and Hotbird,

Actually I don't agree because I am usually
a very perceptive person.

Anyway, let's not dwell on something that is probably be endless. I rather not argue about this.

If you guys want to, maybe you like to tell me about yourselves, like what gear you own, how long have you been an audiophile, what sort of music you like?

You can get a hang of my system from KC's blogsite.

http://lilkcaudioblog.blogspot.com/2009/04/ken-telos.html

and

http://lilkcaudioblog.blogspot.com/2009/03/ken.html

Joamonte said...

Exactly ! even with vision we already can't judge 2 object distance accurately when its further from you....not to mention the less sensitive hearing.

anyone who interested might do this experiment, ask you Mrs/child to talk to you at 3 feet,6 feet ,9 feet and 12 feet away...close you eye and listen.

from 3 feet to 6 feet no problem ,you can hear the different, 6 feet to 9 feet become a little tricky to hear the different for some , 9 feet to 12 feet even less different....

Some recording like the Checky record test CD Vol 1 also have similar test...

Joamonte

Joamonte said...

Ken,

OK....agree its quite endless so better stop here.

This is a visit of little KC some time ago before I change my power amp send my speaker back to Sweden upgrade all driver and crossover.

http://lilkcaudioblog.blogspot.com/2008/07/blog-post_09.html

And recently a Hong Kong visitor come over my place with so update photo.

http://www.av100fun.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=132038&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=45#p2615688

We used the same power amp now that why I interested to pay you a visit.

Joamonte.

Joamonte said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Ken said...

Joamonte,

I am using the older Rowland Model 8, not 8T.

Looking at your setup, I would say that your setup is totally opposite mine
1. I used almost no room treatment whereas your room is basically teeming with it
2. Your room is small whereas mine is big.

So my question to you is how would you define your soundstage? Wide? Deep?
Do you get a perception of layering?

hotbird said...

Ken,
Vision is actually the most important sense in the human body. Everyone except those with visual defect can see superbly and judge colors, contrast, distance, depth, detailing without any training at all. We are conditioned and trained to see and read from the very start. We do not need to have visualphiles, people who are trained to note what is good vision. People can judge clearly what is a good plasma TV or good camera easily.
But when it comes to sound, however, human are less perceptive of what accurate or good sound is. So long as we can hear and get the gist of what it sounds like, humans are quite satisfied. Thus for the layman, music from a minicompo is already as good as music from an expensive hifi system. To be an audiophile, one needs to be trained to listen for spatial cues, details, imaging etc. Lots of what experienced audiophiles take for granted may not be even be audible to the untrained ear at all. There are many audiophiles out there who are actually quite depth-blind, ie they cannot perceive what is sound depth. To them a Naim system with a flat soundstage is numero uno. Thus you cannot take all audiophile to have the same level of perception as oneself. In addition, audiophiles who like warmth bloomy sound are often at contradiction with audiophiles who like clear transparent sounds with lots of resolution. One finds warm sound blurry, lacking details, while the other tell you the other sounds clinical and sterile, analytical, not musical. (Lilkc can probably advise you which camp your ardent suitor belongs to.)
In short aural perception is quite subjective, what some people can hear, some cannot, and even if they can hear, they may not perceive positively. Thus this hobby can be labelled as a very private and personal calling. There's no necessity to invite every tom,dick and harry to listen your system and heap accolades on it, as the best judge is nobody but yourself. But on the other hand, one can visit as many other systems (need not be people you know or even showrooms) to learn from other people, their shortcomings and their pluspoints. It may sound selfish but that's probably what you and myself may agree upon ;-).
As for listening tastes, I have gone through many phase of listening, starting from disco/cantopop in the 70s/80s, developing into newage/jazz fusion in the late 80s/90s, then to soundtracks/classical crossover/chinese pop/China audiophile/LPCDs and currently Japan vocals for which I have delve quite deep and maintained a long running thread at

http://www.echoloft.com/hifi-forum/index.php?topic=15173.0

While most audiophiles don't really collect much music, I have to date about 4000 cds and growing...so maybe when I retire can set up a virtual shop on ebay to lelong them as a sideline (First edition pressings... etc)

Joamonte said...

"Joamonte,

I am using the older Rowland Model 8, not 8T.

Looking at your setup, I would say that your setup is totally opposite mine
1. I used almost no room treatment whereas your room is basically teeming with it
2. Your room is small whereas mine is big.

So my question to you is how would you define your soundstage? Wide? Deep?
Do you get a perception of layering?"



Ken,

Totally opposite? depend on how you see it....LOL!

Through out my visiting of different Audiophile over the years....no matter very good sounding system of very experience Master, or average sounding system from Newbie, my understanding is that different audiophile have different concern/preference when they listen to/tweaking their system.....for example, sound stage/layering is something some audiophile can't live without it, but to some of the other type audiophile, say, those with Vintage JBL/Altec/WE its not something that important at all.

For my case of course I have my own preference on sound (I would say I like Big scale,strong Impact and Resolution) , but I will not use this to judge whether system a system is good sounding or not....

So far I never encounter any system that I feel unbearable if a system is own by a experience audiophile , because I always can hear something different with my system, and sometime those are my own system unable reproduce....

And unlike some audiophile like to criticize other system weakness with one time listening , I understand most experience audiophile like to do tweaking experiment and sometime will ruin their system with in-proper tweaking..

....many of the time when there are visitor ask for visiting my system I will welcome them even my system sound is not so good at that time... I know my system able to perform great during the time I tweak it correct, and experience audiophile visitor will understand that.... and those who don't understand?

....I dont care ...LOL!

Ken said...

Hotbird,

Your post is the best I have read in my time I have visiting this blogsite.

I totally agree with your statement of the system must firstly satisfy the owner first. Although we do not really need people to heap praises on the system, we still need people (quality audiophiles) to acknowledge that it is good. That to me is a sign that you are heading towards the right direction.

In my audio journey so far, I have to say that I have met many "audiophiles" who hasn't really found what they like. Some don't even know what they like even after years of playing hifi. Their system sound horrible, just like a massive minicompo. Some owna 6 figure system but has less than 20 cds to listen to. Sad!

So far, my rough estimation is that I have close to 1000 cds. I try to keep all the good recordings. I have quite an eclectic taste in music. I listened to most types of music. My taste range from Metallica to Mari Nakamoto to Paganini to canto pop. To suit my wide range of musical taste, my system need to be able to play all music well. I have seen a lot of system which can play the slow stuff well, some can only whack the daylights out of you. Mine can do most things well. Well to me, anyway!

May I know what hardware that you use for your system?

hotbird said...

Ken,
Thanks for putting me so high on the pedestal, where should I send the check to? ;-)
As for my equipment, most of what I have may not be easily available in KL (but in Penang, my hometown). For me, the source is the most important start, as you cannot add back or enhance what is not there later. Thus I placed most of my budget in the source. Used to own a Meridian 500/566 combo for over a decade but upgraded recently to a pair of Accustic Art Reference Drive2 and Reference Tube DAC lately. The source are then directly connected to a Nuforce P9 preamp followed by Nufore 9SE V2 monoblocks which runs into a pair of Von Schweikert VR4 Jr floor standers. Equipment are all placed on a 5 tier Master Reference Finite Elemente Rack with the Cerabase footers. Cabling are essentially Acrolink cables with the top range Mexcel series on the source and lower range below. Speaker cables are 3m length bi-wired with Audionote AN-SPe silver cables for the highs/mid and Audience AU-24 copper wires for the bass.
My room size is about the same as yours except that it is more cluttered with furniture. Like yours, totally devoid of any room treatment except for a few strategically placed Acoustic Revive QR8 Quartz Resonators. My tweaks are mainly Japanese stuff, using probably the whole range of Acoustic Revive accessories right down to their RCA/XLR caps except for their diffusers, some Taoc footers replacing previous Finite Elemente footers here and there, HRS Nimbus/Damper plates etc.
A CSE RK100 power regenerator drives the tranport/dac source that isolates the digital system too, while the rest are just plug to a passive Acoustic Revive RTP6Ultimate power distributor with Oyaide R1 outlets assisted with some parallel noise filters like BlueCircle BC83Mk2 Noisehound.
That's essentially about it

Ken said...

Hotbird,

I am not putting you at a pedestal. I just say what I feel and I agree totally with your previous post. It is so hard to find like-minded audiophiles.

Your system is not bad at all. I agree with you that the source is very important but I also believe everything is also important.
At the moment, I felt my system is bottom heavy in terms of gear strength but luckily the sound did not show this. I hope to rectify this soon.

Anyway, I have no experience whatsoever with Nu Force amps. There are new generation of ICE amps, right? How you do find them when compared to your previous amps? What are the strength of the Nu Force amps?

Thanks

hotbird said...

Ken,
Lest I bore or distract other readers with already OT discussion of Class D amps (diverting very much from Power Bars..), kindly email me at hotbird@hotmail.com and we can discuss more in private with lesser constraints. Thanks

David said...

Ken,
from your post here,you think u r an audio god! I just want to ask u who give u audio god license? U give yourself license? U only think u r right,how about if other's think u r wrong? Only god is always right, cannot question, all others must follow! Unless u trully is god, i don't think i can agree with u. The readers will know who is right. And if they follow u then congratulations! U have been elevated to god status! Now i ask our fellow readers, any one status! Now i ask our fellow readers, any one want to follow Ken, the Audio god?

Ken said...

Hotbird,

Thanks for your email add. I will email you because the digital amps are the new type of amps. They are much lighter as well.

Capernaum Creative Solutions Inc. said...

Panzer,

Seems like if you have the dosh, the Sine is more or less a one stop solution.

I was just wondering if you have ever tried a normal, typical industrial standard extension cord against these babies.

I was just wondering where these babies differ from a normal one. Thicker bus bars, contact points, gold plated?

Just curious.

Felix

Eddie said...

Ken, Panzer,
I very respect you all Hifi knowledge and Hifi skill, and the power of analysis of your ears. But if the way you write can match lil'kc & Felix by 1% then that will be excellent.I believe iwill love/like you all even more. Let me say once more i really respect you.

yuen said...

http://www.echoloft.com/hifi-forum/index.php?topic=15793.msg188604#msg188604

Something interesting for you Ken.

Capernaum Creative Solutions Inc. said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
hotbird said...

For a more recent update, please also read

http://www.xtremeplace.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=63333.msg471468

Apparently some said you need to run in the Telos RCA/XLR caps (100hrs) to experience the effect.

My comparison was with just a set of female XLR's straight without run-in, as there were then no such instruction or advice when I first bought and tried them way back in Oct 2007. I bought this pair of Telos XLR at Singapore's International Sight & Sound Exhibition in 2007 when it was first introduced to the local audiophiles in a room shared with Venture Audio speakers.
Would that have made the difference in opinion and have given me 2nd thoughts, most likely. However I still stand by my comments that they look too much like Cardas designs. If you really want to impress the world, please come out with more original looking caps that does not resemble Cardas, unless they are really the OEM behind Cardas and Audioquest caps which I suspect (just like Acoustic Revive used to OEM for Furutech before they launched their own brand)

Panzer said...

Ken,

Your points noted. Let's agree to disagree if there's anything we can't further agree upon! I've been traveling for work and it's becoming a chore(read rea....l tired!) to do this.

Finally, our offer for you to wirte here still stands. Even if you do one article a month, is good enough to tell our readers about your version of "correct" perspective.

Altough I am more inclined to think that in audio, there are many routes to happiness and simillarly to despair too! For me at least, there is no one way more correct than the others, but if for some reason, and if it sounds wrong to your ears, it's almost certainly wrong! That's all.

Hotbird,

Welcome to DAB. Your system sounds like "Somekind of Wonderful!( remember that from Joss Stone?) If my travel schedule goes according to plan, I should be in Penang and Alor Star area sometime in early July to cover the next round of high end home visits. I'll contact you via your e-mail provided.

David,

Again I remind you that this is "Desireable Thoughts" section. Your friendly co-operation in maintaining a desirable read is much valued.

Felix,

The Sine is trully wonderfull in build and sound quality. I DON'T think the industrial grade Hammond(Blue Circle Audio uses the Hammond) can compare! I've checked out Farnell & RS already.

Lastly folks,

Desireable Audio Blog, as it's name implies is not a forum! I appeal to all using this section to stop treating it like one!

Since this section has outlived it's usefullness, I'll close it and any further response will not be entertained.