harvey mason's shocking drumworks
the best hifi system on earth is... fourplay's performance in dewan filharmonik petronas on wednesday night.
which is to say, live performance is still, by far, the best reference system on earth bar none.
fourplay's performance defined all aspects of high-fidelity to a 't'. if you ever want to know what intensity, immediacy, drive, pace and rhythm, tonality, air, bloom, ambience, soundstaging, thunderous and tactile bass etc. etc. - in fact, all those technical jargons the hifi reviewers regularly dish out (much to the confusion of newbies) - go for this kind of performance.
being a non-fan, i don't really dig fourplay but i know their live performance is something else. as a discerning audiophile and music lover, one just can't afford to miss a live performance by these jazz fusion maestroes, performing in one of the best halls in the world.
coming back just from esplanade in singapore, i have to say that DFP, tho' being a much smaller concert hall, has top-notch acoustics, one that is warm and rich at the same time. it is a national treasure.
throughtout the performance, be it bob james' tinkering on the piano, or nathan east's rhythmic basslines, or larry carlton's masterful plucking on the guitar, or the superb and commanding presence of harvey mason's drum works, fourplay played together tightly as a quartet without outshining each other. but i must say harvey mason is the star of the show. he stole the thunder from his teammates. without his drums, fourplay would lose much of its commanding flavour. i also think that larry carlton is not as fitting as lee riteneur as lee's style is more fusion in nature whereas larry's style is more acoustic and mellow.
while many megabuck hifi systems may be able to reproduce the tonality, imaging, soundstaging, highs, mids, lows and other crucial elements in a live performance to a believable degree, there is no way that the intensity, immediacy, rawness, tactility, presence could be reproduced in any convincing manner. the most amazing thing about this live performance is that eventho' the SPL (sound pressure level) is very high (above 100db, for sure) yet it retains all the musical nuances and details without piercing and deafening to your ears.
who ever said that a live performance cannot be refined and delicate? the highs and mids in fourplay's performance were both very very refined but they are not the kind of 'fake' refinement that SET amps or silver cables produce, if you know what i mean. for example, the highs in my ARC-based system, although very very extended and sweet, are simply too beautified, too glorified to be anywhere as close to the Real McCoy. It does upset me to know that my system does not sound real afterall.
kc and i were totally speechless at the end of the performance. all our preconceived notions of how a true high end system should sound were squashed to pieces. there is simply no way that a hifi system can sound this good.
we have decided not to switch on our supposedly high-fidelity systems for at least a week, in an attempt to normalize our listening. the withdrawal symptoms would be too great if we don't.
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8 years ago
12 comments:
Hey Les, glad you enjoyed the Four play performance. Live music is indeed what we should benchmark to with our systems like a good cd player to a turntable... cheers, t
Hi Terence, I heard a few analogue setups, until today also I catch no balls on what's so great about them?
On A/B comparison, analogue does have less digital hash, no pun intended, but there's just no indication of it eating digital alive wor.
Maybe I'm too young to get that reminiscent of good old days?!
hi terence,
despite my disappointment that my system ain't sounding close to real life, i ain't gonna lose sleep over it.
if i always benchmark a system with live performance, then my audio life will be very miserable and painful!
the point is - know the kind of sound and music you like and then choose a system that exbibits those strenghts to the fullest.
to me, even the best naim system does not approach the intensity and drive of a real performance, tho' it is closer than any other makes/brands out there in making reproduced music sound close to live.
no offence intended. tho' i may sound paradoxical, my point is, hifi is supposed to be enjoyed. we shouldn't always be worried about accuracy and fidelity. my quest is for sound pleasant to my ears and not sound close to live because a sound close to live may not be pleasant all the times. ask those SET (single-ended triode) supporters why they still hang on to their beliefs and you will understand where i am coming from.
anyway, thanks for the illuminating comment!
Les,
I understand your predicament after your thorough explanation.
"if i always benchmark a system with live performance, then my audio life will be very miserable and painful!"
We may have our differences in how music should be presented in a certain way. However, to me: sonic nirvana should be the reference to a good live performance. Why? Because it's the real thing, and not something falsified to the pleasures of our intended listen. Unless we like to listen to something wrong...
"hifi is supposed to be enjoyed. we shouldn't always be worried about accuracy and fidelity"
I beg to differ on this statement(no offence, just academical). If I were to benchmark my system to a live performance then the above statement must hold true, naturally, as I will be comparing say, the natural sound of a trumpet played in a live performance to the sound of a trumpet reproduced in my system. For the equation to balance itself, accuracy and fidelity must hold their places.
These are just my opinions and I don't mean any prejudices and offences in any way.. T
Hi Lil' kc,
"Hi Terence, I heard a few analogue setups, until today also I catch no balls on what's so great about them?"
I sincerely don't mean any sarcasm by saying this, but the Fourplay concert you attended recently is presented in the purest analogue form. It's the real thing.
"On A/B comparison, analogue does have less digital hash, no pun intended, but there's just no indication of it eating digital alive wor"
Digital technology is getting very very good nowadays. You are in a way, right to generalise the notion that digital today will not lose much to analogue. Coupled with convinience and compactness, the CD medium does have an edge over LPs today. Sonically, a poorly setup or non-optimised LP system will definitely lose out to even an entry level CDP. However, as one goes higher end with the turntable and does everything right in the minute adjustments of tracking weight, azimuth, VTA, etc, I must admit that even a high end CDP trails a long way from this setup. I must credit the designers at Meridian for their quest to realise the dream to have CDs sounding equivalent or better than LPs one day. I am optimistic.
cheers, t
hi terence,
i sort of half-expected your response, coming from die-hard naim supporter.
but hear me out. i find that naim is good in presenting live rock music but what about really delicate, intimate and refined stuff like female vocals (e.g stacey kent)? i don't think that's naim forte at all. why give me grunt, rawness and PRaT when there is no such element in the performance? so in that sense, naim does not suit my tastes as it is not truthful to the recording.
you know what detractors say about wilson speakers? bass for bass' sake. it produces so much bass that even for music without much bass contents!
i am not trying to stir up the argument on brand loyalty but simply, as i said, one must know what one wants in hifi/music. too perfectionist attitude (i.e my ssytem must sound real to live music) in your puisuit would only result in endless heartache and shrinking bank accounts.
i would greatly love to own a full naim system for moments when i really feel like blasting rock music. but as i age, i somehow listen more to mellow and soothing music. that's life :-(
Hi Les,
Good response and dialogue so far... Please understand that this is not an argument ok. It's for hifi's sake. :-))
For the record, I'm not trying to change one's perception here on perfectionism in one's system, etc. I believe everyone is entitled to their own wants and desires in hifi, and everything else in this material world :-)) You choose what you want, simple. I was just stating my point in my replies.
I have this simple logic that if a system is accurate enough (whatever brand it maybe..), it'll be able to convey music, be it by Stacy Kent, Norah Jones, Carol Kidd, Claire Martin or by Eric Clapton, Miles Davis, Alphonse Muzak, Ahmad Jamal, or by Bad Company, Led Zeppelin, Cream, Mothers of Invention, and what have you, in a similar accurate fashion or manner. Is this logical?
I guess the key question here is whether our ears are ready to accept the reality or not? And can we tune our ears to how reality sounds?
Take for example, how do we know how to differentiate between the sounds of classical guitars and acoustic/folk guitars? Then, how can one tell if the particular guitar was recorded by using in-line piezo pickups or by close miking? We really don't, do we? We generalise from our early life intuitions and conclude from there. And to experience in real form, the only way is either to attend more concerts or to attend more live events...or to have more musician friends.. (Heck, I personally don't even know how an actual fugelhorn sounds)
Share an example: I have a hifi playing friend who just refuses to go to concerts and live events because he wants to believe that his system is the best source of music for him. Since we're on the topic of "the best hifi system on earth",I really feel sorry for him as he ain't heard the real deal yet. Anyway, he's still happy, guess that's most important :-))
I wish to state, what I own now (the Naims) is still far from live music presentation, but I know for a fact, that they are at least 70% closer than other systems. In fact I want to sum up that the current system in my room, with a good live recording, is about what you may get in a small tavern or club, minus the smoke and alcohol drench of course :-)
Most importantly Les, is our willingness to accept how the real deal sounds like. Then, we will have a particular reference to follow or, crave..
Keep em coming!
hi terence,
i am enjoying this discussion actually. ok, some of your points are certainly valid.
let's take naim sound as an example. please don't take this as a naim-bashing forum; i am merely using a particular brand with strong character to illustrate my points.
the major strength of naim is to reproduce music which is heavily processed and which demands rhythmic timing, eg. rock or most studio rock recordings. this i can't deny. but when you play a simple natural recording made in good acoutics hall such a chamber music or even a full orchestra, the naim sound seems a bit contrived to me. it doesn't sound natural or rich in tonal colours, nor does it possess soundstaging abilities like other high-end systems.
which is why i have been stressing the fact that there is no one system that can play all genres of music well, despite your belief of the contrary.
on simple acoustics music like double take (the local jazz duo), i certainly think my ARC sound much more real and accurate than your naim but on live rock recordings, your naim may have the edge.
i don't even need my system to play all types of music well, just MY type of music is enough.
i mean, i will buy a bently if i want to cruise in the boulevard leisurely but if i need to burn some rubber, i will ultimately get a ferrari.
different horses for different courses.
on the subject of accuracy and fidelity, i would argue with you that the fun of hifi is to make things that even real life can't. what do i mean by that? take for example the hifi artifact of the vocalist's mouth. i am so particular about vocalist's mouth, the movement and the size, because that's important when you listen to vocals music. is it strictly real? no. is it fun? definitely yes! with amplified live performance, one can barely discern the mouth let alone the movement. but in a good natural recording without minimal amplifications, the mouth is clearly pinpointed. i am sure naim proponents won't give two hoods about this, right?
i am one of those audiophiles who pays incredible amount of attention to tonal balance and density, which, whether you like to believe me of not, can only be achieved with good high-end cables. again, this is something that naim proponents don't/won't waste time and money on.
in fact, after the fourplay's performance, i concluded that tube amps can do many more things (more realmore accurate) than solid-state amps. just the harvey mason's bass itself - the bounciness, the tactility, the elasticity - is NOT something i heard from solid-state amps, not krell, not naim.
let's accept the fact that audiophiles come in many camps - the PraT, the solid-state, the tube, round-earth, flat-earth, box, planar, electrostatics...
ultimately, only the audiophile himself will know whether he is truly enjoying good music through his system.
some say ignorant is bliss!
Good morning Les,
Ha... another lazy Sunday to ponder on...
I think you have replied very well to your beliefs and to your thoughts in high fidelity. Well done!
And keep enjoying the music and genre you're into, because that's most important, eventually.
Cheers,
Hiya Les and KC,
I also had the pleasure of seeing Fourplay perform live at the City Hall Auditorium here in Hong Kong a couple of weeks back. They were magnificent!
It took a while for them to warm up initially but after working out the kinks (they’re not that young anymore), they proceeded to rock the house. Their encore lasted half an hour after being called back 3 times….
The sound? Ah! Soulful, full of life and impact, yet never harsh nor grating…you could hear every note played by Bob James on the grand piano, all the bass lines and cymbal and drum work was delivered in a coherent whole with any lag, smearing or fuzziness. Such sound transcends home audio as we know it.
Stacey Kent will be performing in HK on 10 September. You guys coming?
hi guan,
wah! you got time meh? (joking) i wouldn't mind stacey kent really but right now, i am broke! i attended a record of 5 concerts this month!
hi terence,
i am only speaking from what i know, after more than 15 years in this hobby. but i am sure you can see that i am very moderate on my views, never extremist.
finally, a tongue-in-cheek comment - i don't miss what i don't know! that's why ignorance is always a bliss....hehe.
Hi Les,
" that's why ignorance is always a bliss....hehe. "
Careful there... it can also put you in trouble most of the time.. he he
Cheers!
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